Personality Interview

Chairman, Senate Committee on Environment and Ecology, Senator Abubakar Bukola Saraki, spoke with journalists recently in Ilorin, the Kwara State capital, on a wide range of issues. Hammed Shittu presents the excerpts

Is it true that those of you who dumped the PDP for the APC were afraid of losing your seats at the Senate?

First of all, I want you to rule out the belief that we didn't declare early for APC out of the fear that our seats would be declared vacant. You know every politics is local and it would be irresponsible for a senator to sit in Abuja and declare without carrying his people along. Senatorial issues are a bit more complicated than that of the House of Representatives in the sense that you are talking about a whole senatorial zone.

In some cases, you have very powerful people within your constituencies. So, we gave some of the senators the time to consult. It's not a question of fear, just rule that out; it has happened. It was not as quick as that of House of Representatives because the way we do things is quite different from their own way of doing things but it has happened.

But your defections are seen more from the angle of personal ambitions?

I have always said it that all what we are doing is not out of personal interest. We made serious sacrifices.  We are not going with high expectations other than the fact that we all have a common goal and that has not changed from the interactions I had with the APC members. Surely, there is going to be challenges ahead. I'm not naive to think that there won't be challenges in trying to prepare for the election. But despite those challenges, we have a strong foundation and that is key. We must make sure we uphold the tenets of democracy.

What do you think of the defection of 22 out of 24 members of the Kwara State House of Assembly to the APC?

If out of 24 members in the assembly, 22 are going somewhere and two refused, I think that's less than 10 percent. You all know the story of the member representing my constituency. At a time, a delegation was sent to me insisting that they did not want him to represent them and out of sentiment, I pleaded with them. I think the Senator (Ajibola) has made his choice too but I think his decision was based on the fact he's a third time senator and he's not coming back.

But, I think they are not fair to those coming behind. These people represent the people and those decisions we made are not individual decisions. The decisions we made are decisions of the state. The governor of a state is going somewhere, senators, House of Representatives members and state assembly members, that's the decision of the people. And I believe when you represent the people, you abide by the decisions of the people.

By and large, in Kwara State today, you know majority of the people are where we are. We all know the so-called PDP doesn't have the support of the people, though they have their own agenda, which they are pursuing, I don't think the agenda is in the interest of the people of Kwara. So, out of 22 members of the assembly, if you are talking of 5 or 6, it will be okay but the 2 you are talking about is inconsequential.

Are you not worried that some aggrieved members of the APC in Kwara recently formed a New APC in the state?

I think the party has made a very strong statement on that issue. Some of the names that were mentioned, the likes of Marwa, Shekarau and Belgore... I think it's just irresponsible individuals that are coming up with title that does not exist. These are people that are trying to create crisis where there is none. I think the issue of new APC is dead on arrival.

The New PDP National Chairman, Alhaji Adamu Muazu said he would soon commence a reconciliatory move to bring back the G-5 governors. Do you see that working out?

On the new chairman going around, well, it's expected. I don't know what his plans are but I think it has been overtaken by events because the time for that has come and gone. I think I have said this before that we are forming a party. We are mobilising our people. We are moving ahead in the right direction. We have registration coming up in February.
He's my personal friend. We are not going to stop him from coming. This thing is not personal, I keep on saying it. If we want to survive in this game, we cannot take decisions based on personal reasons. He's my personal friend and all of a sudden, it's now a different story. Let's leave that and talk about how to strengthen our own party.

How do you see the crisis in Rivers State?

We know it's wrong. I have been a governor before. I have been Chairman of the Governors' Forum before and there had been situations when we had to go and see the President because governors and the Commissioners of Police (CP) are not working together. And, commissioner of police in that case should have been long changed in the interest of peace and stability of the affected state. Constitution is clear that the governor gives directive on the issue of police matter. It's a simple thing. And if it does not work then, it will be clear that the governor is the problem.

The IGP knew what to do. He was a CP here in Kwara. Amaechi and Wike's fight is a small one. When former governor Mohammed Lawal, of blessed memory was a sitting governor, Kwara was hotter. The IGP was CP then and if not for the role he played, where he showed his capacity and ability, I won't have been governor. So, I know he knew what to do. He has the capacity to do it. He has experienced it as a CP.

You understand what I'm saying that it was even tougher then than now. So, people like us were worried that if this man knew what to do, what was then happening? So, there must be other factors that we didn't know. And we thought we must help him to remove those factors. You know, I keep saying this issue is not personal but it's in the interest of the country to make it better.

Are you worried that PDP members are threatening to take over Kwara in 2015?

I wish them all the best. I have told most of them that a system that you have benefited from; that you have been part of, you shouldn't expect everything to be rosy. Everything can never be in line with what you want. In politics, you have disappointments. In politics, things are bound to happen or change. But just because things are not going your way all of a sudden because of your own personal interest not because anything has changed, the system is bad. So, some of these issues I don't want to personalise.
You find out that when they were in these positions and were part of the system, the system was not bad but all of a sudden, they said the system is bad. But we thank God that they are in the minority. Their capacity to take-over the state, I don't see. They have their agenda. They believe they can go and sell this in Abuja so that things can happen. I don't think this is in the interest of Kwarans. Like I have said, majority of Kwarans are where we are. This is because we have a government that's working. We worked hard for it. If they too can work hard to convince the people, they should go ahead and that's why I said I wish them all the best.

Senator Simeon Ajibola has refused to go with you to the APC and we learnt that, he may likely stage a comeback under the platform of PDP in the 2015 election, how do you read the equation?

I think I have to make myself clear. When I said Ajibola is not coming back it is because he's a third time senator and  his calculation must have  been that he's not putting himself back for re-election. Perhaps, that's why he did not listen to his people because if he intends to come back, he would have listened to them. The feedback from his entire senatorial district is that they are not supporting what he is doing and that is the point I'm trying to make.

What would you say about alleged inconsistency in the application of rules in the confirmation of political appointments in the senate?

This is the kind of consistency that we are asking for. For democracy to be sustained, we have to be consistent. You cannot apply the constitution in Lagos and refuse to apply it in Rivers State; you apply it in Bauchi and refuse to apply it in other states. If you do that, it will create lots of problems. Same thing with the party; in a political party, you have one rule for one state and another rule for another state. It's going to be very interesting. In this week, we are going to see what will happen because we all know the practice of the Senate on the issue of when two or three senators are not in support of a candidate. To be honest, I cannot tell you I know what is going to happen because there would be some inconsistencies. Some of us have seen that inconsistencies. So, it will be interesting to see. Let's all see how it works out so that we know what is in practice.

Is there the possibility that you may go back to PDP if given better deals?
Do you know the deals that they have made before and I objected? It's not the matter of better deal. The opportunity was there. It's not about any deal. We have left and started a new life and you are asking whether I will go back if they offer me better deals.

What therefore are the APC chances in Kwara in 2015?

APC will win all elections in Kwara State, Insha Allah, for as long we have the political machinery. What should interest you is that everywhere our political machinery goes to, we win elections. It is not that PDP has been winning elections right from 1999. In 1999, PDP did not win. We voted for PDP under the alliance of APP and PDP at that time. In 2003, we were in PDP and PDP won. Now we are in APC and APC has already done first salvo because it has the majority. APC will win the elections.