Former military governor of the old Kwara State, Group Captain Salaudeen Latinwo, comes across to many as one of the martyrs of the nation's strive for good governance. He was appointed governor by the Buhari/Idiagbon military regime after the civilian government led by Alhaji Shehu Shagari was overthrown. But the Buhari/Idiagbon regime had barely been in place for one and a half years when it was overthrown by another band of military men led by Gen. Ibrahim Babangida. The new military government then arrested and detained the leading lights of the Buhari/Idiagbon regime, including Latinwo. In this interview with VINCENT AKANMODE and AUSTINE AVWODE, Latinwo, now 72, relives the experience and also examines the security situation in the country and the clamour for a national conference to iron out the differences between the various nationalities that make up Nigeria, among other issues. Excerpts:

How has life been since you left the military?

It has been full of challenges. The way we do things in the military, you operate like a family. If all of a sudden you are cut off from that family, you can imagine the challenges it will impose on you as you try to fit into the larger society. Obedience, discipline and orderliness are the tools of the military. But in the larger society, the discipline is very limited. People are not loyal; they are only after what they can benefit from the system. 

Coming from a military background, I had initial difficulties. But I was able to adapt as time went on. People came, out of sympathy, to offer assistance directly or indirectly and we were able to pull on. Were you prepared to leave as at the time you had to go?

Definitely not! We had this sudden departure due to some people's ambition or personal interest. They roped us into the argument of whether they wanted to change the government or not. Maybe some of them were trying to solidify their position and so felt they should hunt others down. Somehow, we were able to get out of that problem, and here we are trying to keep up with life.

Definitely, I was not ready for departure then. I was one of the few officers that were trained by the Nigerian Air Force to stabilise or, if you like, create an effective foundation for the operations of the Nigerian Air Force. And they spent a lot of money on us from day one; from one training to another and from one one graduation to another. Then all of a sudden, one person just comes in and says you have to leave, whether right or wrong. It is not only a pain to you but also a disaster to the country, because that is a lot of money gone down the drain. 

But that is the kind of thing you find in a developing country. It is not helping anybody, but it happens and it keeps happening. Somehow, people find it easy to knock you off course because they want to preserve themselves. It is very saddening not only to you but also to your community and the state. And what has been your perception of the state of affairs since then? 

We started very well at independence but things have gone off course and you start to worry. Maybe because of the kind of foundation that we have, you keep wondering how things degenerated to this level of so much hate. It used to be love, love and love. Today, you see people killing one another just for one flimsy reason. In our time, merit, excellence was the order of the day. Such were the values that we had. But now, things are totally different. 

And when you find yourself in such a situation you just keep wondering if you don't have a duty to tell the society that look, there is a better way to do these things. Invariably, some of the children we have today may not know the orderly way of getting things done. They only know the quick fix method and easy way to doing things rather than working genuinely and effectively for the development of the country.

So, these are the kind of values that I think we should put in place. I mean we should be able to teach in schools the values of honour, discipline, integrity, transparency and all that. Look at the wordings of the national anthem and see what is going on in the society. As we get older, we must sell or preach these ideas to the young ones. In fact, they don't know, I must confess. 

But you don't seem to have shown any serious interest in public office like many of  your contemporaries... 

Some of us are brought up in a way that we must or should do things in an orderly manner. I should not because I want to serve begin to go about lobbying and, in some cases, tell hot stories just to get what I want. No. The kind of politics you find in our society today is such that does not encourage or  embrace honest people. I tell people that some of us live by truth, obedience, discipline, honour and integrity. These values are difficult to compromise if you have them. But you now have a society that expects and encourages lobbying, bribery and even begging for appointments. I can't do that because I wasn't brought up that way. 

From the training I have and, I stand for what is right and just. Once something is right, it is right. If it is wrong, it is wrong. But politics in our society today is neither here nor there.  Honest people are not encouraged to participate in politics. It does not embrace honesty, so some of us are kept outside and we are happy about it. 

How easy is it to survive in such a situation? 

Well, it is very difficult. But what is important in life is that survival, as you begin to go on, is relative. Now, all my children have virtually left home; it is only myself and my wife. I don't go to parties and I don't go to launches. If you call me and say you want to launch a book, I will tell you that I will come but I don't have a penny to donate. So, all those social activities are limited. Except for petrol and diesel which are consuming your money, there is hardly any other thing that you want to spend money on. Most of the things had already been put in place years back. 

So, all you need is just live on your little benefit and, along the line, when people need your service, they will find a way to put it to you and in the process assist you. But you must cut your coat according to the size of your cloth and not according to your size. 

You spoke about spending money on diesel and petrol. Is this how we must live? 

This is the situation we have found ourselves, and it is a tragedy of sorts. Let me tell you what is basically consuming money in this country: they are diesel, petrol and, of course, telephone. The people from South Africa have taken advantage of us. The average man on the street has about two or three telephones and they also cajole you to contribute money and whatever. 

In civilised countries you don't have more than one phone. If they see you holding three phones, they would ask you what you are doing with them. NITEL is no longer there. There are no more landlines. So, when your friends laugh at you, you cannot start telling them the stories of no more NITEL and so on. It is a very difficult story to tell. 

Then there is no light and the house is all so choked up and windows are locked because of insecurity. So, you have to keep the generator running, and diesel now is about N170 a litre. And if you are consuming about 25 litres a day, you know what that means. For a retired senior citizen, it is a lot of money. 

The same thing goes for petrol in cars. There is no viable public transport. In other countries, there are public trains that are very regular, like from here (FESTAC) to Lagos, going every five minutes. Maybe we are asking for too much. But, at least, let there be one or two or three trains, say from here to down town Lagos. So, it is a kind of palaver, if you like it that way, to keep up with day to day activities in this country. And you have to survive. So, you must now remove the wheat from the chaff; which one is suitable, which one is not, etc. 

This was the point some people raised when the Federal Government increased the pump price of petrol recently. They argued that some of these basic facilities should have been in place before the increase. What is your take on that? 

We are operating in a country where God blessed us with oil. We should take advantage of that to develop our country, because this thing will soon end. It is a temporary product. Nobody knows what will happen in the next 15 or 20 years. Here is a country where there is no welfare package. Nobody cares for you as an old man. In Britain, they call you a senior citizen once you are 60 years. You don't pay for transport or medicals. You don't have that in this country. The only way people can benefit is to reduce the price of petrol and diesel and there will be a multiplying effect. But you can see from what transpired that there is enormous dishonesty in the system. It is just a way to favour a few people who will enjoy the benefits and not the larger members of the society who you are responsible for. That is the dilemma that we face in the day to day living in this country. 

There was a protest against the increase but some people felt betrayed that Labour leaders did not take the battle to a logical end? 

What impressed me about the whole thing was the quality of people who participated in the protest, especially here in Lagos and maybe in Abuja. It was like we were making progress. The beginning of unity is when people come together and stand by it. Labour is a body recognised by all and it is at the centre of the activities. But  the civil societies are getting mature and will eventually take over from labour leaders in matters like this in the future.

Don't forget that directly or indirectly, Labour is still answerable to government by way of the constitution. And when government goes there, they have many ways of doing things, like saying the security of the country is at stake or that people are trying to forcefully change the government. But Labour maintained that that was not the objective and that it was just to ensure that government listened to the voice of the people. 

But government overwhelmed Labour. I think it (Labour) was not strong enough to stand its ground. What is security? It is about the people, their welfare and their future, and except you guarantee it, you can't enjoy your tenure. But Labour couldn't hold on for long. The government was smarter than them and they say they have facts, which may not be true. But people believe them. So, that is the way government goes sometimes. 

Nigeria is currently facing a serious security challenge in the form of Boko Haram. Is there no better way the Federal Government can handle the issue than it is doing now? 

I think there should be a way out. The least understood aspect of violence in Nigeria is the everyday threat that an increasing number of citizens are facing. Nigeria may  become more far dangerous as the supply of machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars becomes even easier to access. The increasing number of the unemployed will further increase the level of crime and insecurity. 

Indeed, there is no reason at present to believe that the police would become more adept, especially given the funding, at managing crisis. And the level of training and commitments presently with the police pose a lot of challenges. 

When one tries to pin down the advocates of violence as to what act would be effective, the answers are blatantly illogical. Sometimes, they talk of making governance impossible or to completely overthrow a lawful government, using the tactics of terrorism, suicide bombing, etc. They have forgotten that no internal revolution has ever succeeded in overthrowing a government by violence unless the government has already lost the allegiance and effective control of the armed forces and the security establishment. Anyone in his right mind knows that such a thing will not happen in our country today or in the future.

This is not time for romantic illusion and empty philosophical debate about peace. It is time for action. What is needed is a robust tactical programme that will bring about peace, love and understanding among Nigerians as quickly as possible. 

We must realise, however, that terrorism obviously cannot be eradicated by means of force alone. Non-military means to control what breeds terrorism should be employed. Such grounds is provided by social and economic cataclysm, poverty, large state unemployment, armed conflicts, organised crime, drug trafficking and illegal and uncontrolled arms trafficking. 

The evil of terrorism can only be fought by a comprehensive means and in a joint effort. No nation on its own can secure its own land or counter the threat of modern terrorism. It is only by merging our capabilities that we can protect our people, defend our society and preserve our ideals and principles for the future generation. 

If in the end, those in the business of terrorism succumb to the temptation of using violence in their struggle for whatever ideology they intend to pursue, then they must bear in mind that the unborn generations will be the recipients of long and desolate night of bitterness and our chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos. 

I honestly hope that we as a people will not allow this to happen through effective collaboration with the government of the day in order to checkmate the activities of miscreants in our society. 

When this kind of thing happens to you, either your wife or husband or child, you can never forget until you die. People are saying dialogue; let us talk. Yes. But it has to be done through a reasonable parameter. There must be a balance. It should not be they dictating the terms and you don't even know them. They are largely faceless. 

So, what would be your response to the calls in some quarters for dialogue with the sect? 

Yes, it is an easy way of saying let us try and put the problem behind us. But these people have not come out with a face or exactly what they want. Assuming their cause is that they don't want the Bible in this section of the country, then why attack the UN? Why kill innocent people? These things don't collaborate. And it is like maybe a group of people just sat down and said let us disturb this man; let's make him unhappy; let's make the system ungovernable. But in doing so, you are creating unhappiness, bringing sadness to several homes, towns, communities and the society is becoming impossible to manage. Whoever is doing this is not a friend; he is an enemy. And if he is an enemy, you have to treat him as such, whether internal or external. That is the way I look at it. 

Yes, if you want to dialogue, then let them come out openly and talk. Talk is good. Talking is about the best procedure for peace, there is no doubt about that. If anybody says anything to the contrary, he is probably mixing it up. But how do you talk to somebody who is at best unknown? All you see is bombing today and bombing tomorrow. It is very barbaric and uncivilised. 

Some people have expressed fears that engaging them in dialogue could lead to the disintegration of the country. Do you also nurse that fear? 

Not really. But where people say once you are not an Hausa and you are not a Moslem then you should quit a particular area of the country, and if you don't, they come for you and slaughter you, and you are saying these people are miscreants, that they are not relevant or important, yet when they say this thing they execute it, you begin to wonder who is the government. So, they are more or less in charge, putting the real government behind the curtain, and that is dangerous. That is nothing but anarchy, and you should not allow it. So people are saying now that it has reached that level and you can't find a solution; let us sit down and talk. 

I think we can sit down and find a solution. Nobody wants Nigeria to break up. There is so much power at the top. Let there be devolution of power to the states and local governments. There is so much inequality and injustice in the system and so much favouritism and marginalisation. Those are the issues. For so many years these things have been there but they are not addressed. 

The reality on ground demands that we should be able to sit down and find a solution to all these problems.That is where the issue of a national conference comes in. Do you think it is necessary?

If anybody comes around and says it is not relevant and that we should discard the idea, that person is pursuing an illusion. You see, countries don't just crumble without prior signals. There would have been many numerous signals of decay. When political institutions lose capacity, credibility and legitimacy, and socio-economic problems mount in the face of state corruption and ineptitude, crime and violence flourish and people are uncomfortable; they are scared and can't do their day to day activities, then something is wrong. These would be some of the physical happenings in a society that would make one conclude that yes, this society is crumbling.

The obvious situation in Nigeria is that political leaders, past and present, are locked in bad marriage which they all dislike but dare not leave. It is not impossible to reverse the situation if government is more attractive, committed, disciplined and have positive approach to issues and there is adherence to the rule of law, human rights, fairplay, equity and justice, thereby creating a society where all will have equal opportunity to social upward movement. 

You can't wish them away because they exist and we talk about them everyday. So why can't we sit down and talk about them? Maybe the government at the centre may have to review the whole thing, like going back to the parliamentary system. That is a better way to manage the system. Now you have the Senate and House of Reps and they are taking enormous money. Yes, the Senate is getting mature everyday, but it goes beyond that. With due respect, how can some people go home with millions monthly for just sitting down to debate one or two legislations and you have over 140 million people living in abject poverty? It is not a fair system. 

So let us go back to the parliamentary system where you have the executive within the parliament and the opposition plays a vital role. Today, we don't even have a viable opposition because the leading party, directly or indirectly, is killing them and making things difficult for them. 

Ask yourself, why do people move out of PDP and after a while they go back again? In a country with 170 million, even though it could be an advantage politically and economically, socially, it is a disadvantage because you have to cater for the poor, under-privileged and the old. If you must do that effectively, it is a lot of money. We must be thinking of how to iron out some of these things. It is an enormous load that we need to carry, and so we need the elevator system. We can break it down, take some up,  wait and come back to take the rest. There is no big deal in a country breaking into smaller units. It is not necessarily a disintegration. 

Are you suggesting a kind of regional arrangement? 

Yes, that is my position. We had it before. How many regions should we have now? It could be two, four, six or ten regions. What is important and evident now is that within the nomenclature called Nigeria, people should be given the opportunity to manage their own environment and locality or community and then answerable to Abuja. 

The fear of those who are opposed to a national conference is that it could dismember the country. No, it will not. What will and can result in dismemberment is anarchy; when people are free to carry guns and use guns the way they so choose. A situation where you have warlords here and there should call for concern. Ironically, the drums of separation are coming from the most unlikely quarters, like the North... 

No! What is important is the fact on the ground, and the fact on the ground is that there is a lot of instability and there is insincerity in the system. It is important that we sit down and address the cause of fear and instability in the system. There must be a way to re-arrange the system in a way that it will benefit all of us in the future. We can't just sit down and say we haven't got a problem. There are certainly some problems. If nothing at all, the population is a problem. A population that is not well developed, not well educated or well catered for is a problem. A situation where everybody just does what he like is not good enough. There must be rules and regulations.

For instance, each time they appoint a new Inspector General of Police, he comes up with different policies. Now there are no more roadblocks when there are no adequate measures that can effectively stand in for roadblocks. There are no patrol vehicles. Where there are, they are not in top shape. There are no communication gadgets and so on. There are no control command centres that you can get information from. So, how do you do it? If you are using roadblock and you want to change it, then it must be a gradual process. We are talking about 150 to160 million people; how do you manage it? It is better for them to collect N20 than leave the roads empty, knowing that when you drive for two or three miles, you are sure to see a roadblock than for one to risk attack by armed robbers and lawless individuals. 

So, there are many things we must discuss. The point I am trying to make is that there comes a point where you just have to get naked before a mirror and thoroughly examine yourself. We can't deceive ourselves any longer. We have to do the necessary. It has been done in the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and so on. 

The fear is that what worked in the Soviet Union may not work here because the people are not enlightened enough...

What kind of enlightenment do you want? It is the leadership that must show the way. Take what happened during the protest; many grown up individuals were there to provide leadership. They simply insisted that you cannot do this or that, this is why we are here and that is it. They gave them water and whatever and ensured that it never went out of hand. We have never had it so good. These were intelligent, highly organised people. We can still have things like that. Leadership is important in everything. Would you blame the elite for not helping in bringing about qualitative leadership in the country? 

The problem is that when you tell the elite that 1+1 = 2, they want to be able to verify it and be sure that what you are saying is not only logical and verifiable but it is the truth. On the other hand, those who are readily available are those who you tell that 2+3=4 with out caring to know how you come about such. That is why you look at the elite as uncooperative and not ready to contribute to the leadership growth of the country. 

The way things are, do you see hope for this country?

I think if the leadership is assertive, we should be able to get somewhere. There are too many things wrong but too many wrong things don't make things right. Once you discover that something is wrong, you should not cover it up but should be prepared to change it. Today, the PDP as a party should do the needful to move the nation forward without having to wait for the opposition parties to prod it.

A lot of people would blame the military for our present woes. Incidentally, you were part of the military. As a former military governor, do you agree that you contributed to our  woes?

One thing I want you to do is to look at the different regimes which at one time or the other ruled this country. You have such regimes as the Obasanjo, Buhari/Idiagbon, Babangida and so on. But the man who is at the head of each regime is also the head of the military. So, all the powers at that particular period are in his hands. Today, we still talk about the Murtala regime. He came and made so many changes within a short period. Within the short period, it was clear what he stood for and where he was heading to. Unfortunately, we lost him.

Then we had the Buhari/Idiagbon regime. It came out with key issues, like War Against Indiscipline and corruption. People were made to queue and be orderly. There was national orientation and those found to be corrupt or found to had amassed enormous wealth at the expense of the country were arrested and, of course, jailed. They changed the national currency within a week, so that those who had billions in their homes lost the money as it had no more value. And, of course, you could not come out to say you were changing more than so and so amount. 

Unfortunately because of self interest and personal ambition, somebody came overnight and took over the government, released them and asked them to go without asking questions in a bid to be popular. So, it would be wrong to say we hold the military responsible for the woes of the country. It is not the military, it is rather the head of those regimes that should be blamed. The military was able to do one thing: keep Nigeria one. They fought a civil war to that effect. 

To fight a war is not a small business. They did that successfully and also put in place some infrastructure. The major failure of the military, if you ask me, is the inability to lay a serious foundation for democracy so that the people could build on it for this country. In other places, that is what they do. So, there you are. The system was used by a few individuals to project individual interests and selfish ambition to the detriment of the general good of the people, and the country is yet to recover from it.

Do you think that things would have been different if the Buhari/Idiagbon regime had endured?

Definitely so! Of course, you could see from the little time permitted them. If it had endured, we wouldn't be where we are today. They really appraised the situation. They came out with solutions and were tending the solutions. Within that short period, things were changing. For instance, Nigerians found it difficult to just throw waste about indiscriminately from a moving car. Nobody dared do it. If you go to Kwara where I come from, the university students still line up to take buses. The roads were clean and everywhere there are symbols to show that at a point in time, a good regime was in place. So, if we had allowed that to develop over 15 to 20 years, certainly, we would not be where we are today. But that is the way of life; it is not what we think it should be that it always is. What is important is what we make of the position we have found ourselves. So, to me, it is now a question of sitting down and finding a solution.

The Babangida regime not only truncated the regime of Buhari/Idiagbon but also terminated your own career. Have you forgiven him?

Well, we take things with a lot of maturity. Yes, I wasn't comfortable. Yes, the children were dislocated. Everything was disorganised. But then, having suffered all that, I just saw it as a kind of sacrifice for fatherland. They dismissed us from the service and people who were in the service came and said, ‘Look, in as much as you have nothing against these people, you can't do this to them. What did they do? You just saw him as a brother and friend to Tunde Idiagbon and so you become jittery and seized the moment to do away with him.' 

But that is life. At that time, he was the man who had the power and everything. There was no point arguing with him. Just leave him to God to manage. But as for me, I saw it more as a sacrifice for Nigeria because as that time, I was just 42. So, you can imagine the age at which I was so badly ruffled. Now I am 72. So, it has been a long time of sadness, discomfort and unhappiness within the family. 

How much interaction have you had with him since then?

Whenever we meet, recall that he was my boss, I would go there and salute him. But not much of day to day activities. In any case, who are you as a poor man to want to confront a rich or wealthy man?You were a governor in Kwara State.

If you were to compare it now with your time, what would you say?

I think Dr Bukola Saraki did fairly well as he put certain structures on the ground. But some of these structures, he has to oversee them and ensure that they get to the point that they must get to. If you go to quite a number of places today, the roads are bad, especially in my own area, maybe from down town Ilorin to Erinle where you have the boundary. So, those roads are bad. 

Electricity is not adequate and water is not flowing. So, I think the present government, even though it is a continuation of the past, should be able to make a remarkable impact on the lives of the people. The quality of the lives of the people must change. At the end of the day,  the people will ask, ‘What did you do with the opportunity you had to be governor?' He then should be able to point to whatever he did. 

Time is not on our side. And the idea of saying this is a federal road is not tenable, so he must wake up. The road, I spoke about spans about seven local governments, so it is very necessary that he fixes it. The road serves the economy of the area and the state.